Breakout from Islam’s mental prisonby Janet Albrechtsen
Wednesday August 22, 2007
from the Australian
I AM sitting in a small book-lined room in Sydney's eastern suburbs with a petite woman in her late 40s dressed in a neat suit and sensible shoes.
Can this be the woman recently described as an "international sensation"? The woman who drove an American rabbi to publicly accuse her of being "Islam's Ann Coulter"? The woman who last year made it on to Time magazine's list of 100 most influential people? Is she really the "uncompromising firebrand in the defence of reason and liberty". Yes, she is. Meet Wafa Sultan.
Last year, the Syrian-born psychiatrist, who has lived in the US for almost 20 years, catapulted herself into the centre of the critical issue of our time: how will Islam embrace modernity? She entered the battle of ideas in a fiery debate with an Islamic scholar on Al Jazeera television when she criticised Islam for its backwardness, for shunning knowledge and progress, for propagating a "mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages".
One question not often asked is why a growing number of Muslim women are speaking out, demanding a reformation of Islam. And the next question is why these brave women are not hailed as heroes and champions by Western leaders at the highest levels. They operate at the fringes on the right side of a crucial battle of ideas. It's still just a handful. Women such Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somalia-born former Dutch MP and author of Infidel, and Irshad Manji, African-born Canadian Muslim and author of The Trouble with Islam. And Sultan.
The answer to the latter question is one for us to ponder. Sultan is unapologetically curt as to why Muslim women are rising to the challenge: "Muslim women have lost everything. They have nothing to lose by speaking up." The security surrounding her visit to Australia last week attests to the fact women such as Sultan have, on the contrary, plenty to lose. They risk their lives when they speak out. Whether you agree with Sultan or not, her arguments about Islam ought to be met with words, not violence. Yet Sultan is used to constant security, FBI visits and daily death threats.
Late on Sunday evening she sent me a collection of them, including this: "I'm warning you to back up or the sword will cut off you're neck."
A crackpot, perhaps. But the slaughter of controversial filmmaker Theo van Gogh in The Netherlands, the heart of multicultural Europe no less, is a reminder that some crackpots deliver on their violent threats. Yet, for Sultan, the choice was obvious. She eschews Islam because, she says, it has so little to offer women. She describes Islam as a war against women, perverted by fear of sex and sexuality that mandates the mistreatment of women.
Sultan spoke to The Australian about her life. "I remember as a little girl trying hard to avoid passing by my father while he was praying because Mohammed once said that if a dog or a woman passes by a man while he was praying he had to rewash himself and pray again, otherwise his prayer wouldn't be accepted.
"I remember hearing as an eight-year-old girl that a woman is nothing but shame. Her marriage will cover up one-tenth of her shame and her grave will cover up the rest of it. Can you imagine, at eight, being consumed by shame just because you are female?" she asks.
Many find Sultan's message too confrontational. Her friends have asked her to soften her words. But she refuses, arguing that her experience as an Arab Muslim woman needs to be exposed. She says that before the Al Jazeera interview, her focus was on educating people in the Arabic world.
"In my (Arabic) writing, I always compare my life in Syria and my life in America, and I let my readers reach a conclusion ... they have never heard such voices as mine."
She receives hundreds of emails each week and thousands of people in Arabic countries click on to her website. She describes the world as a small village, thanks to the internet, where others have the chance to hear and understand what is going on
They see how women in the West are treated. "When they compare it with themselves, they question: 'Why? Why only us? Why don't we enjoy our lives they same way Western women do?"'
The Al Jazeera interview was the West's formal introduction to Sultan. And she attracts her fair share of Western critics. She is, some say, manipulated by Jews and Americans. But, as she points out, "the Islamic media introduced me to the West, not the other way around. Prior to my interview, I didn't have any Jewish friends. I said it because I believe it."
The American rabbi who walked out on Sultan at a conference complained that she failed to allude to a healthy, peaceful Islamic alternative.
Yet Sultan is certain that Islam can reform and will reform if exposed to enough information and if Muslims are able to make choices.
"Human beings look for the best, but many Muslims don't know the best ... they are hostages of their own belief system for many centuries and now I believe, because of the internet, they are exposed to different cultures, different thoughts, different belief systems ... if they are given the freedom to choose, I believe they are ready to mix Islam with other thoughts, to improve it," she says in a voice filled with passion.
But it will be a long battle of ideas.
"Look at any Islamic country. Tell me what you see. Poverty, backwardness, oppression, dictatorship, miserable lives. Somehow we have to help them change their way of thinking, their way of life. We have to re-create a new generation clean of hatred. We have been consumed by hatred. We are not practising our humanity. It's very sad."
Her message is clear. The West must be more confident about espousing its own values. And Islam must accept criticism as a sign of intellectual rigour if it is to reform into a belief system that embraces freedom and progress for its followers. Sultan is full of hope that the information revolution has cracked the wall around the Islamic prison. Not just for Muslim women.
I read another email she has translated from a 16-year-old Palestinian boy in Ramallah: "Without you, I would have been a suicide bomber. They taught me how to bomb, instead of teaching me to listen to music, or to enjoy looking at a beautiful painting. I don't believe you're human, you're a god."
Say what you will about Sultan's uncompromising message. She is part of a brigade of women, each in their own way dragging Islam into the 21stcentury.
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Tell us what you think
"What an amazing and courageous woman. May her words be taken to heart!"
People quote the Koran for evidence of incitement to jihad, killing, dying and terrorism to become rulers of the world.
It is not just the books that are the cause of the problems today. Our ancient texts when read by themselves can be just as vicious, The difference is that our fundamentalists are not the mainstream, while theirs are.They have millions, but so have we.We have to insist that they discard the evil parts of the Quran and concentrate on the good parts. Dogma has to be replaced by theology!
Posted by MM
There is no doubt that Islam is a religion which may inculcate in some of its followers a desire to kill and die for Allah! But I strongly believe that their religion alone is not the cause of their current inability to come to terms with the 21st Century and modernity in terms of human relations! I believe that they use their religion as an excuse to hold onto power: the power of the Fundamentalists over the people; the power of the political leadership who use the religious leadership to hold on to their dictatorships; and finally the power of men over women. We are not going to change their religion. What we can do is take them away from its evil teachings and from their evil leaderships. The softest targets are our Muslims in the West,- particularly their women. But as long as the West pursues an agenda of "political correctness",- e.g. Islam is a religion of peace, etc.- then let us tell them: prove it!
. My plan would be:1.Stop feeling sorry for the "poor Palestinians".An article by Thomas Friedman about Israel's modern high-tech lifestyle produced a reply that Israelis have the same dream as the Americans have. Yes, they of course they do,-but it sure is different to what those Arabs can produce,- "because they are occupied"? What a pitiful excuse for laziness, stupidity and "dhimmitude",- the sheer Islamic fundamentalist attitude to not allowing infidels to show them up! Some of our people and the Western world feel sorry for them? Why do the Palestinians deserve more than the millions of other Arabs living in the same miserable conditions? Because those guys can't rise above their miserable cultural dependency on the 'powers above' and on the female subjugation beneath? I only feel sorry for the poor Israelis who have to control them in order for Israel to survive.I feel sorry for all of us who have to live in fear of their terrorism. 2. All regular columnists and NGOs should start writing and targeting the wrong parts of a culture that glorifies death, subjugates its women and shuns education and democracy and glorifies theocracy. 3.Forget "political correctness" and make everyone conform to the same standards of peaceful coexistence in our multicultural societies. 4.Make sure that those who promote notions of a "caliphate","dhimmitude" and sim. mores become outcasts in their society! 5. Don't be intimidated by the Islamists. Learn from the Israelis,- they have to survive in a their midst and they do it day-in and day-out! We have the brains and the brawn to overcome them.
MM
I find arguments about the details of the Islamic religion not constructive nor productive. All religions can be picked to pieces when their texts are read. It is what their leaders and particularly the fundamentalists teach their flock that makes a difference. We are not able to influence anyone in the Islamic world, but we can do so among our citizens in the Western countries. The Janet Albrechstens and Pamela Bones of our country and Wafa Sultan and the few other Moslem women in the West who dare to speak out, must be supported and then more will follow them. "Political correctness" stops the Western women's Movement from supporting these women,- while the Moslem women feel under threat and become defensive. It's the old story of our Western "Women's Liberation Movement" of the '60s and '70s and the mainstream women who were virulently against them.The "housewives" felt under threat! It's no longer an issue and the same will happen to the Moslem women, as long as we all are not afraid to encourage their liberation! The Islamic world's women may then be emboldened and supported by their sisters in the West to become more liberated. Then we may see a shift in the fundamentalists' hold on power! Nazism failed,Communism failed,Islamism will also fail,- but the human cost is unfortunately too high. The women though definitely hold the key to Islamic enlightenment.
MM
The debate among Moslem women who keep their old traditions and the modern Moslem generation as well as with the Western world as a whole,is very much like the "women's liberation movement" of the '60s and '70s with the traditional stay-at-home wife and mother of that era, who felt threatened and inferior to the working-wives & mums! Among Western Moslem women, things will change in another generation,- even the young educated girls of today, while still yearning for their menfolk's approval, I hope won't tolerate their sexist attitudes, no matter what their chauvinistic Imams may inculcate in their male flocks.
MM
Waleed Aly says: Certainly, though, the intellectual battle - call it a gender jihad, if you must - is indispensable for change. But it is a battle that must be won in the West as much as the East. Only when Muslim women are treated as human beings whose views matter and who are valued in their own right will we have cause for optimism. As long as they remain symbols, and as long as those symbols are invoked by opposing sides in obnoxious rhetorical wars of culture, they will continue to be little more than a battlefield. Relentlessly discussed, never consulted, invariably exploited. Waleed Aly | August 25, 2007 From: The Australian
MM
Sunday, August 26, 2007
Friday, August 24, 2007
ISRAEL, DIASPORA AND ZIONISM:the meaning of a Jewish 'homeland'.
Jewish Museum Lecture,23/11/06. Lecturer Zohar Raviv, of the Melton Adult Education Institute of the Hebrew University. A young man in his early thirties, graduate of Brandeis University.
Notes:(MM)
HOMELAND VS. A HOME ON LAND. Geography and theography.
While we may love our home on its piece of land, it can be changed at will.
A homeland is a totally different concept.
One needs to understand the meaning of our Torah, -the interpretations of the Torah,- the words of the Torah,- and the differences between geography and theography, between history and narrative to understand the meaning of the Jewish Homeland. The Almighty ‘wedded’ man to the land and this was consummated in the Torah which gave us our Jewish identity for over 5 Millenia,
The (Aramaic) words in the Torah are the roots of Hebrew words which describe the topography of Canaan across the desert to the sea. Moses leading the Jews to the “promised land”, is actually the “magical land”. Zohar gave many examples of the words used in prayer which identified the progress of the people across the desert to the sea, -a land which they identified according to the sun as being very wide,- (when in fact it is only wide E to W,- while we look at it as long and narrow, N-S.)
Zohar commented that we in the Diaspora are in effect more Jewish than our Israeli brethren, why? Because we are at home in lands which are not our homeland and to compensate for whatever feelings we have about this, has created a difference between the Israeli and the Diaspora Jews who celebrate the festivals and identify with their fellow Jews all over the world. Israelis on the other hand, who feel that they live in their Homeland according to the Jewish calendar already, are more intent on their secular enjoyments and take their religious Judaism for granted.
The Jews remained Jewish even when dispersed, dispossessed and in exile for the last 2,500 years by means of a living relationship with the soil in their ancient Homeland through the Torah. There are Agrarian laws , pentateuchal and rabbinic which relate to the land in Israel. The economy which is envisaged for the children of Israel by the Laws of the Pentateuch is purely agricultural. (The Holy Land was to be divided according to tribal areas and each family within the tribe was to receive its portion.) Alienation of this ancestral land could only be temporary; in addition to the cancellation of debts every SABBATICAL YEAR, when the land must be kept fallow; etc.
Many of the Jewish (Israelite) feasts have an agricultural basis and application, particularly Passover, a herdsmen’s and farmers’ festival; Shavuot (Pentecost) was the festival of the new grains; and Succoth (Tabernacles) was the festival for the gathering-in of the autumn harvest. Many religious laws (halacha) apply to agricultural produce and animal husbandry,- in the land of Israel mainly.
Zohar said that Israelis who are “Orthodox-secular” ( the Reform Judaism, or Conservative, or Liberal, etc. are not recognised by the official Rabbinate as being ‘authentic’) don’t consider themselves Jewish first and foremost, but national-Israelis,- while the Orthodox-religious Israelis will always be Jews first and there is a need to bridge this divide.
Zohar concluded with a challenge to us, the Diaspora Jews to engage and challenge the Israelis, particularly the youth and for us to teach them what it means “tikkun olam”, to have a meaningful relationship with world Jewry.
(His refs. “Between God and Man” by Abraham Joshua Heshel;
Herzberg’s “The Jews” and another book whose author escapes me, also called “The Jews”.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>The Land:History lesson
>>
http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From "Blood Libel" to "Land Libel" (Europe)
Michael Freund
For a continent that prides itself on the glory and depth of its civilization over the centuries, Europe sure has a lot of work still to do when it comes to its treatment of the Jewish people.
For hundreds of years, European attitudes toward the Jews were essentially shaped by a spiteful and malicious lie.
And in that sense, at least, very little seems to have changed.
For while they once charged us with the “blood libel”, saying that we illicitly used other people’s blood, various European leaders now falsely tar us instead with “land libel”, asserting that we have taken other people’s territory.
And just as they once blamed the Jews for all sorts of catastrophes, such as the Black Death, they now seek to lay various world crises at our doorstep, too.
Take, for example, British Prime Minister Tony Blair's address the other day at a banquet in London, where he outlined his view of how to resolve the crisis in the Middle East.
In an astonishing display of delusion masquerading as analysis, Blair essentially sought to convince his audience that the "core" of all the region's troubles - and yes, even those of Iraq - are somehow connected with the Jewish state.
"A major part of the answer to Iraq lies not in Iraq itself but outside it, in the whole of the region," Blair said, adding that it is necessary to adopt what he terms a "whole Middle East" strategy.
And then, after suggesting that the current focus on Syria and Iran is misplaced, Blair added the clincher: "On the contrary, we should start with Israel/Palestine. That is the core."
The core?
What on earth is he talking about?
To suggest that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is somehow connected with the Baathist insurgency in Iraq, or with Syria's desire to strangle Lebanon, or Morocco's occupation of Western Sahara, or Sudan's acts of murder in Darfur, or any of the myriad other intra-Arab conflicts in the region, is not only intellectually vacuous, it is downright silly.
Worse yet, it is a cheap and transparent attempt to mollify the Arab states by parroting their party line of "don’t blame us for our region's troubles, blame the Jews".
In promoting this hogwash, Blair is deflecting attention from the real, underlying cause of the region's ills, namely, the Arab world's lack of freedom, democracy, tolerance and mutual respect.
While courting the Arabs may prove useful to Mr. Blair as he plans for his retirement next year, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that it will make the Middle East a safer or more peaceful place.
Instead, it is just one more sorry example of just how Europe's underlying approach toward the Jew has yet to really change.
Notes:(MM)
HOMELAND VS. A HOME ON LAND. Geography and theography.
While we may love our home on its piece of land, it can be changed at will.
A homeland is a totally different concept.
One needs to understand the meaning of our Torah, -the interpretations of the Torah,- the words of the Torah,- and the differences between geography and theography, between history and narrative to understand the meaning of the Jewish Homeland. The Almighty ‘wedded’ man to the land and this was consummated in the Torah which gave us our Jewish identity for over 5 Millenia,
The (Aramaic) words in the Torah are the roots of Hebrew words which describe the topography of Canaan across the desert to the sea. Moses leading the Jews to the “promised land”, is actually the “magical land”. Zohar gave many examples of the words used in prayer which identified the progress of the people across the desert to the sea, -a land which they identified according to the sun as being very wide,- (when in fact it is only wide E to W,- while we look at it as long and narrow, N-S.)
Zohar commented that we in the Diaspora are in effect more Jewish than our Israeli brethren, why? Because we are at home in lands which are not our homeland and to compensate for whatever feelings we have about this, has created a difference between the Israeli and the Diaspora Jews who celebrate the festivals and identify with their fellow Jews all over the world. Israelis on the other hand, who feel that they live in their Homeland according to the Jewish calendar already, are more intent on their secular enjoyments and take their religious Judaism for granted.
The Jews remained Jewish even when dispersed, dispossessed and in exile for the last 2,500 years by means of a living relationship with the soil in their ancient Homeland through the Torah. There are Agrarian laws , pentateuchal and rabbinic which relate to the land in Israel. The economy which is envisaged for the children of Israel by the Laws of the Pentateuch is purely agricultural. (The Holy Land was to be divided according to tribal areas and each family within the tribe was to receive its portion.) Alienation of this ancestral land could only be temporary; in addition to the cancellation of debts every SABBATICAL YEAR, when the land must be kept fallow; etc.
Many of the Jewish (Israelite) feasts have an agricultural basis and application, particularly Passover, a herdsmen’s and farmers’ festival; Shavuot (Pentecost) was the festival of the new grains; and Succoth (Tabernacles) was the festival for the gathering-in of the autumn harvest. Many religious laws (halacha) apply to agricultural produce and animal husbandry,- in the land of Israel mainly.
Zohar said that Israelis who are “Orthodox-secular” ( the Reform Judaism, or Conservative, or Liberal, etc. are not recognised by the official Rabbinate as being ‘authentic’) don’t consider themselves Jewish first and foremost, but national-Israelis,- while the Orthodox-religious Israelis will always be Jews first and there is a need to bridge this divide.
Zohar concluded with a challenge to us, the Diaspora Jews to engage and challenge the Israelis, particularly the youth and for us to teach them what it means “tikkun olam”, to have a meaningful relationship with world Jewry.
(His refs. “Between God and Man” by Abraham Joshua Heshel;
Herzberg’s “The Jews” and another book whose author escapes me, also called “The Jews”.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>The Land:History lesson
>>
http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From "Blood Libel" to "Land Libel" (Europe)
Michael Freund
For a continent that prides itself on the glory and depth of its civilization over the centuries, Europe sure has a lot of work still to do when it comes to its treatment of the Jewish people.
For hundreds of years, European attitudes toward the Jews were essentially shaped by a spiteful and malicious lie.
And in that sense, at least, very little seems to have changed.
For while they once charged us with the “blood libel”, saying that we illicitly used other people’s blood, various European leaders now falsely tar us instead with “land libel”, asserting that we have taken other people’s territory.
And just as they once blamed the Jews for all sorts of catastrophes, such as the Black Death, they now seek to lay various world crises at our doorstep, too.
Take, for example, British Prime Minister Tony Blair's address the other day at a banquet in London, where he outlined his view of how to resolve the crisis in the Middle East.
In an astonishing display of delusion masquerading as analysis, Blair essentially sought to convince his audience that the "core" of all the region's troubles - and yes, even those of Iraq - are somehow connected with the Jewish state.
"A major part of the answer to Iraq lies not in Iraq itself but outside it, in the whole of the region," Blair said, adding that it is necessary to adopt what he terms a "whole Middle East" strategy.
And then, after suggesting that the current focus on Syria and Iran is misplaced, Blair added the clincher: "On the contrary, we should start with Israel/Palestine. That is the core."
The core?
What on earth is he talking about?
To suggest that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is somehow connected with the Baathist insurgency in Iraq, or with Syria's desire to strangle Lebanon, or Morocco's occupation of Western Sahara, or Sudan's acts of murder in Darfur, or any of the myriad other intra-Arab conflicts in the region, is not only intellectually vacuous, it is downright silly.
Worse yet, it is a cheap and transparent attempt to mollify the Arab states by parroting their party line of "don’t blame us for our region's troubles, blame the Jews".
In promoting this hogwash, Blair is deflecting attention from the real, underlying cause of the region's ills, namely, the Arab world's lack of freedom, democracy, tolerance and mutual respect.
While courting the Arabs may prove useful to Mr. Blair as he plans for his retirement next year, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that it will make the Middle East a safer or more peaceful place.
Instead, it is just one more sorry example of just how Europe's underlying approach toward the Jew has yet to really change.
Friday, August 17, 2007
ISRAEL: the promised land for all Jews or God's land?
Israel: a land for all people, for all Jews or God’s land?
Compare it with this joke:
When a panel of doctors was asked to vote on adding a new wing to their hospital, the Allergists voted to scratch it and the Dermatologists advised no rash moves.
The Gastroenterologists had a gut feeling about it, but the Neurologists thought the administration had a lot of nerve, and the Obstetricians stated they were all laboring under a misconception.
The Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted; the Pathologists yelled, "Over my dead body", while the Pediatricians said, "Grow up!"
The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, the surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing and the Radiologists could see right through it!
The Internists thought it was a bitter pill to swallow; and the Plastic Surgeons said, "This puts a whole new face on the matter."
The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists felt the scheme wouldn't hold water.
The Anesthesiologists thought the whole idea was a gas and the Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no.
In the end, the Proctologists left the decision up to some asshole in administration.
ISRAELI REALITY CHECK .
Imagine the problems one has to govern Israel, the State.
MKs have their own constituencies, each of which has its own agenda and BELIEF SYSTEM. Some hundred and twenty of them are elected to represent the people.
The PM and Knesset as a whole have to satisfy each of these as well as the world outside.Can Jews handle the reponsibilities of Statehood and the power which freedom allows them to exercise it for the first time in 2 millenia? Can these coexist with Jewish values and Jewish morality in a sea of totally different value-systems inimical to Judaism and democracy??
But they try their best,- more than any other country would or could do in their place!
Compare what kind of country each of the following groups would like Israel to be:
1.THE JEWS IN ISRAEL:
• Naturei Karta et al> want a State run by God, presided by Moshiach, in which women and other Jewish sects won’t count, but Imams from Iran and Hizbullah are welcome.
• The PEACE NOW Movement want everyone to count and without believing in God, will still count on him/her to supervise their utopia of a modern, secular, bi-national, democratic state. Similar end result to the Naturei Karta
• The HAREDIM are like the NKs as long as no Arabs will be there. Expulsion or annihilation are OK. They prefer a biblical theocracy.
• THE JEWISH SECULARISTS, would welcome everyone who will be at peace with them and on an equal footing, are satisfied with a smaller Israel, but will not and from experience, cannot trust the Arabs- nor the Haredim- to understand and deliver true peace and democracy.
• THE MODERN ORTHODOX ZIONISTS will treat everyone on an equal basis, like the secularists, but prefer the State of Greater Israel as a Jewish State, not a State for Jews.
2. THE JEWISH DIASPORA wants all the above and supports all groups, irrespective of the Israeli Government’s wishes..
3. THE NON-JEWS.• Israeli Arabs prefer the NKs and Peaceniks TO RULE, rather than their own. The end result suits them well.
• Israeli Christians would like all Jews to come to Israel so that their own Messiah will ‘return’. They don’t care who governs.
4. The Arab world, just wants no Israel.
5. THE WESTERN WORLD WOULD PREFER TO GO ALONG WITH THE ARABS BUT PAY LIP SERVICE TO SUPPORTING A “DEMOCRATIC ISRAEL ALONGSIDE A PALESTINIAN STATE”,- PREFERABLY ALSO DEMOCRATIC BUT NOT ISLAMIST.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the end, the Citizens and people in general leave it to the ‘assholes”,- the politicians! and pray and hope for the best outcomes for themselves.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare it with this joke:
When a panel of doctors was asked to vote on adding a new wing to their hospital, the Allergists voted to scratch it and the Dermatologists advised no rash moves.
The Gastroenterologists had a gut feeling about it, but the Neurologists thought the administration had a lot of nerve, and the Obstetricians stated they were all laboring under a misconception.
The Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted; the Pathologists yelled, "Over my dead body", while the Pediatricians said, "Grow up!"
The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, the surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing and the Radiologists could see right through it!
The Internists thought it was a bitter pill to swallow; and the Plastic Surgeons said, "This puts a whole new face on the matter."
The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists felt the scheme wouldn't hold water.
The Anesthesiologists thought the whole idea was a gas and the Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no.
In the end, the Proctologists left the decision up to some asshole in administration.
ISRAELI REALITY CHECK .
Imagine the problems one has to govern Israel, the State.
MKs have their own constituencies, each of which has its own agenda and BELIEF SYSTEM. Some hundred and twenty of them are elected to represent the people.
The PM and Knesset as a whole have to satisfy each of these as well as the world outside.Can Jews handle the reponsibilities of Statehood and the power which freedom allows them to exercise it for the first time in 2 millenia? Can these coexist with Jewish values and Jewish morality in a sea of totally different value-systems inimical to Judaism and democracy??
But they try their best,- more than any other country would or could do in their place!
Compare what kind of country each of the following groups would like Israel to be:
1.THE JEWS IN ISRAEL:
• Naturei Karta et al> want a State run by God, presided by Moshiach, in which women and other Jewish sects won’t count, but Imams from Iran and Hizbullah are welcome.
• The PEACE NOW Movement want everyone to count and without believing in God, will still count on him/her to supervise their utopia of a modern, secular, bi-national, democratic state. Similar end result to the Naturei Karta
• The HAREDIM are like the NKs as long as no Arabs will be there. Expulsion or annihilation are OK. They prefer a biblical theocracy.
• THE JEWISH SECULARISTS, would welcome everyone who will be at peace with them and on an equal footing, are satisfied with a smaller Israel, but will not and from experience, cannot trust the Arabs- nor the Haredim- to understand and deliver true peace and democracy.
• THE MODERN ORTHODOX ZIONISTS will treat everyone on an equal basis, like the secularists, but prefer the State of Greater Israel as a Jewish State, not a State for Jews.
2. THE JEWISH DIASPORA wants all the above and supports all groups, irrespective of the Israeli Government’s wishes..
3. THE NON-JEWS.• Israeli Arabs prefer the NKs and Peaceniks TO RULE, rather than their own. The end result suits them well.
• Israeli Christians would like all Jews to come to Israel so that their own Messiah will ‘return’. They don’t care who governs.
4. The Arab world, just wants no Israel.
5. THE WESTERN WORLD WOULD PREFER TO GO ALONG WITH THE ARABS BUT PAY LIP SERVICE TO SUPPORTING A “DEMOCRATIC ISRAEL ALONGSIDE A PALESTINIAN STATE”,- PREFERABLY ALSO DEMOCRATIC BUT NOT ISLAMIST.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the end, the Citizens and people in general leave it to the ‘assholes”,- the politicians! and pray and hope for the best outcomes for themselves.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sunday, August 12, 2007
Romanian Holocaust: 24 hrs Pogroms in Bucovina, 1941.
BUCOVINA POGROMS, 24 HOURS IN July 1941.
(Miriam M., Melbourne, Australia).
I have come across an old, well-worn copy of a little book in Rumanian, at an elderly Czernowitzer's home, with the title: "Pogromurile din Bucovina si Dorohoi." By Marius Mircu, 1945.( Editura GLOB Bucuresti.)
It documents every village, where pogroms took place almost all at the same time, in particular during one 24hour period, at the beginning of July, 1941, when the local population was given free rein by the Rumanian army ( General Duca--) to do whatever they wanted to the Jews. There are names listed, of both the victims and perpetrators, plus some official reports of apparent 'trials' after the events!.
My Rumanian is very rusty, but I can still make out that it makes gruesome reading in its detail. I didn't know the extent of the horrors which befell those communities, including my mother's family,- the first village mentioned in the book being Ciudin(Ciudei).
The same author lists other publications about the horrors perpetrated in other towns and communities in Romania.
Having put it on the “Czernowitz (Bucovina's principal city)-list”, people asked about their families’ towns and names for me to look up.
Here are some of the requests and my research results.
CORRESPONDENCE
Dear,
I read your forwarded email from Bruce Reisch about pogroms carried out by the Rumanian army in 1941. My wife's grandmother, Celia Retter, was from Sadagora. Celia was born in Sadagora 1898. She left when she was 16 as the Russian army advanced on the town. Celia came to the United States after the First World War when she and her husband were not able to obtain papers for Eretz. She died several years ago at the age of 106. My wife, Anya, and I have an interest in the history, even the dark moments, of Sadagora. We are curious what happened to other members of the Retter family. Please send any information about Sadagora that you have.
Thank you & warm regards,
Preston Grant
Dear Mr. Grant,
I shall try to translate a little of what they write about Sadagura on that eventful night and afterwards..
" In Sadagura (Czernowitz district) lived about 654 Jews as well as Ukrainians, Poles and Romanians.
One Sunday morning, (the fateful 24 hrs. after the retreat of the Russians) a Romanian patrol of 4-5 young men entered the town and settled in the City Hall, taking it over (names given). Their country!
They formed themselves into a 'National Guard' and at 9pm, armed with guns, they went from house to house (obviously Jewish) and took out the people, undressed as they must have been at that hour,- 72 persons, men, women and children and took them to the City Hall. Later in the middle of the night, they marched them to an open field where a long trench had been prepared, lined them up facing the trench and shot them in the back into the trench. Some 50 locals assisted them."
Individuals and families are named,- those murdered and a few who managed to escape by various means in the commotion. The author then seems to question why in the 4 days it took for the Romanian army to reenter the town after the Russians retreated, did they not flee from there? Why did they not hear of the '24hr.' dictate and waited until the few Romanian soldiers came to kill them?
He puts it to the fact that the Jews and the local non-Jews lived very well together, as they did in other parts of Bukovina. Apparently, 'with a heavy heart', the locals excused themselves that 'only 70 out of the 654 were killed'!
" On th Monday night, the same band took all the Jews out of their homes and took them again to the City Hall. Tuesday a Judicial Commission was instituted.
Those who were considered Communists were detained in the camp there. The rest were freed. Why were they all taken there in the first place (asks the author?)
Various other murders took place in the town over the next few days. 4 men (named) were taken from their workplace, shot and pushed into the still open trench. Only later were the families allowed to bury the dead in the cemetery, finding them totally disfigured and dismembered.
All the Jews of Sadagura were taken to Forced Labor,- men and women, their property confiscated, their former employees allowed to insult them and on the Sabbath in particular, the most devout were especially
assaulted and forcibly marched down the main street in torn clothing. The Mayor in particular enjoyed this sport until another mayor took over and stopped it.
There was another camp in Sadagura where they put also part of the Jews from Storojinetz. (with more atrocities!)"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Among all the names listed, I found no one by the name of your grandmother's family,- Retter. Was that her maiden name? If you have other names, I can check them for you.
Best regards,
---------------------------------
> Shalom ,
> Thank you very much for the information.
> I would like to know about two villages where my parents were
> born: Rus Banila (or Banila pa Cermush) (family Schaier)
> Drachinetz.(family Birnbaum) my fax is 972 - 2 - 6251478
> (please indicate on the copy: :for Dr. Shafir)
>
Dear Dr. Shafir,
I can see only about Dracinet that approx. 120 were killed and about Banila pe Siret only,- "a few Jews were shot. The rest were sent to Ciudei" (where my mother's family lived and where apparently the whole 24 hr. pogrom started).. No names for these towns appear.
Best regards,
------------------------------------------------------->
>
>
> Hi Randy,
I sent you by separate email some URLs for JewishGen/Yzkor Book, describing what happened in Ciudin.
The whole thing started apparently because 4 men, representatives of the Communist Party, in June 1940 went to greet what they thought was the Russian army, carrying red flags.. They were Conrad Kreiss, Knoll Udelsmann and another two intellectuals. Unfortunately they met a retreating battalion of Rumanians, reg.16 Dorbantz (whatever that means)led by one Major Carp, who gave the order for the 4 to be bound. After they dismembered them and bashed their heads-in, they tied them and with their bayonets cut them to pieces!!!!
When the Russian army arrived, they took the 4 massacred victims to Czernowitz and they were interred with all the honours of heroes.The following year, after the Russians retreated, the first army to return was the whole battalion 16, with Major Carp at the head. Wednesday morning 4th July 1941, the Russians retreated and in the evening the Rumanians entered. Thursday morning, the news spread among the peasants that for 24 hrs, they could do whatever they wanted with the Jews.The rest of the guesome details you can read on JewishGen. Of 70 Jewish families, only 3-4 escaped,- 572 people were murdered.
It was this 24hr. 'decree',- the personal revenge of the one Major, that spread like wildfire, it appears, across the whole Bucovina, because all the Jews were labelled Communists.
In Milia, all the Jews, 176 of them, were murdered and the gruesome details are described,- but I cannot describe them. He names some people, -Dr. Iacob Geller,- and also states that "it must be understood that all had lived with good understanding between them and the others without envy or bad blood. But this did not stop the local populationfrom participating in the killing and plunder afterwards."
The only ones who escaped were Dr. Lustig with his father-in law, Moses Haim Nagel. The locals checked all the dead to make sure that no Jews escaped, as well as all their homes.
In Rastoace, there were more Jews because many had fled there from the surroundng areas. All were muredered, some 320 in number. Only family Stier, 8 members, escaped and were later transported to Transnistria. The massacre was executed by the locals, even neighbours who had lived well with each other! The author writes that he wants to repeat it to "absurd extremes", because one cannot explain the besteality of those people. Even those refugees who were fleeing from elsewhere were killed. The refugees came from Sipote, Vijnita, Seletin, Putila. The locals even killed 50 Russian retreating soldirers,- this happened only in Rastoacea. From them they managed to get the necessary arms to kill the Jews.
Vijnitza must have details in JewishGen-Yizkor book as well. 90% of the population was Jewish apparently. Once the rumour reached the peasants that they have "the 24 hours" they started to go door-to-door and stripped the people naked, cleaned them up of jewellery and money then killed them or if they didn't find enything, they killed them because they didn't find anything!
But apparently, "only" 23 Jews were actually butchered, because on the second day, a new Major entered the town(somebody Petruc from Vatra Dornei) and he stopped it immediately,- otherwise all would have been murdered. He was very decent and helped the jews by giving them the rations left behind from the Russians and then divided also some money among them. Unfortunately 14days later this Major was killed on the front. The murdered Jews were later interred in the 100ds-of-years Old Cemetery, in a communal grave.
I don't know the fate of the rest later, but they must have ended up in Transnistria.
---------------
I think that this about covers most of what I can make out! Hope it helps you.
Have you found the book on the internet, that you gave me the pages from? Please send me the URL. It will make it easier to send it to those who might still understand Romanian.
Regards,
---------------------------------------------------
Your newest email is of special interest to me. I've been searching unsuccessfully for years for information about my grandmother, Anna Schmerz and my aunt, Yetta or Yetti Schmerz -- who I believe were victims of the bloody events that took place in Cernauti, Romania in 1941.
It's been extremely frustrating til now and your information offers the potential of learning something.
I don't have a fax available, but if you could check the list and find the names of my relatives, I'll find a friend with a fax to receive the information.
Many thanks for your generosity and concern in keeping the Cz list informed.
Selma Schmerz
Dear Selma,
I checked the Cernauti pages in the book, but did not come across the names you mentioned.
Of course, there were many Jews there in the big city, so I suggest that your best bet is to look up JewishGen/Yizkor book
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Bukowinabook/html
Best regards,
---------------------------------------------
> Dear >
> My name is Fred. Weisinger. I was quite interested in
> your article about Czernowitz. You see I was born
> there and lived through the ocupation period. I was
> back to Czernowitz a few years ago. I also visited the
> vilage of Pohorloutz were my Granparents Weisinger
> were landhoders. When I and my brother Leo visited
> making inquiries most people were newcomers from the
> Ukraine we found however one person who remembered my
> familie by first names as apparently he knew them
> well. I also had family in Zastawna amongst them was a
> Stenzler. I would be interested if you kindly were to make it
> posible to send me any information, of course, I would be
> gladly defry you of any cost of copy.
>
> yours sincerily Fred.Weisinger
>
Dear Fred,
I checked the Cernauti pages in the book, but did not come across the names you mentioned. Of course, there were many Jews there in the big city, so I suggest that your best bet is to look up JewishGen/Yizkor book http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Bukowinabook/html
How good is your Rumanian? I don't mind sending you whatever pages I have about Cernauti, as long as you can read them.
Best regards,
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ______________________
(Miriam M., Melbourne, Australia).
I have come across an old, well-worn copy of a little book in Rumanian, at an elderly Czernowitzer's home, with the title: "Pogromurile din Bucovina si Dorohoi." By Marius Mircu, 1945.( Editura GLOB Bucuresti.)
It documents every village, where pogroms took place almost all at the same time, in particular during one 24hour period, at the beginning of July, 1941, when the local population was given free rein by the Rumanian army ( General Duca--) to do whatever they wanted to the Jews. There are names listed, of both the victims and perpetrators, plus some official reports of apparent 'trials' after the events!.
My Rumanian is very rusty, but I can still make out that it makes gruesome reading in its detail. I didn't know the extent of the horrors which befell those communities, including my mother's family,- the first village mentioned in the book being Ciudin(Ciudei).
The same author lists other publications about the horrors perpetrated in other towns and communities in Romania.
Having put it on the “Czernowitz (Bucovina's principal city)-list”, people asked about their families’ towns and names for me to look up.
Here are some of the requests and my research results.
CORRESPONDENCE
Dear,
I read your forwarded email from Bruce Reisch about pogroms carried out by the Rumanian army in 1941. My wife's grandmother, Celia Retter, was from Sadagora. Celia was born in Sadagora 1898. She left when she was 16 as the Russian army advanced on the town. Celia came to the United States after the First World War when she and her husband were not able to obtain papers for Eretz. She died several years ago at the age of 106. My wife, Anya, and I have an interest in the history, even the dark moments, of Sadagora. We are curious what happened to other members of the Retter family. Please send any information about Sadagora that you have.
Thank you & warm regards,
Preston Grant
Dear Mr. Grant,
I shall try to translate a little of what they write about Sadagura on that eventful night and afterwards..
" In Sadagura (Czernowitz district) lived about 654 Jews as well as Ukrainians, Poles and Romanians.
One Sunday morning, (the fateful 24 hrs. after the retreat of the Russians) a Romanian patrol of 4-5 young men entered the town and settled in the City Hall, taking it over (names given). Their country!
They formed themselves into a 'National Guard' and at 9pm, armed with guns, they went from house to house (obviously Jewish) and took out the people, undressed as they must have been at that hour,- 72 persons, men, women and children and took them to the City Hall. Later in the middle of the night, they marched them to an open field where a long trench had been prepared, lined them up facing the trench and shot them in the back into the trench. Some 50 locals assisted them."
Individuals and families are named,- those murdered and a few who managed to escape by various means in the commotion. The author then seems to question why in the 4 days it took for the Romanian army to reenter the town after the Russians retreated, did they not flee from there? Why did they not hear of the '24hr.' dictate and waited until the few Romanian soldiers came to kill them?
He puts it to the fact that the Jews and the local non-Jews lived very well together, as they did in other parts of Bukovina. Apparently, 'with a heavy heart', the locals excused themselves that 'only 70 out of the 654 were killed'!
" On th Monday night, the same band took all the Jews out of their homes and took them again to the City Hall. Tuesday a Judicial Commission was instituted.
Those who were considered Communists were detained in the camp there. The rest were freed. Why were they all taken there in the first place (asks the author?)
Various other murders took place in the town over the next few days. 4 men (named) were taken from their workplace, shot and pushed into the still open trench. Only later were the families allowed to bury the dead in the cemetery, finding them totally disfigured and dismembered.
All the Jews of Sadagura were taken to Forced Labor,- men and women, their property confiscated, their former employees allowed to insult them and on the Sabbath in particular, the most devout were especially
assaulted and forcibly marched down the main street in torn clothing. The Mayor in particular enjoyed this sport until another mayor took over and stopped it.
There was another camp in Sadagura where they put also part of the Jews from Storojinetz. (with more atrocities!)"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Among all the names listed, I found no one by the name of your grandmother's family,- Retter. Was that her maiden name? If you have other names, I can check them for you.
Best regards,
---------------------------------
> Shalom ,
> Thank you very much for the information.
> I would like to know about two villages where my parents were
> born: Rus Banila (or Banila pa Cermush) (family Schaier)
> Drachinetz.(family Birnbaum) my fax is 972 - 2 - 6251478
> (please indicate on the copy: :for Dr. Shafir)
>
Dear Dr. Shafir,
I can see only about Dracinet that approx. 120 were killed and about Banila pe Siret only,- "a few Jews were shot. The rest were sent to Ciudei" (where my mother's family lived and where apparently the whole 24 hr. pogrom started).. No names for these towns appear.
Best regards,
------------------------------------------------------->
>
>
> Hi Randy,
I sent you by separate email some URLs for JewishGen/Yzkor Book, describing what happened in Ciudin.
The whole thing started apparently because 4 men, representatives of the Communist Party, in June 1940 went to greet what they thought was the Russian army, carrying red flags.. They were Conrad Kreiss, Knoll Udelsmann and another two intellectuals. Unfortunately they met a retreating battalion of Rumanians, reg.16 Dorbantz (whatever that means)led by one Major Carp, who gave the order for the 4 to be bound. After they dismembered them and bashed their heads-in, they tied them and with their bayonets cut them to pieces!!!!
When the Russian army arrived, they took the 4 massacred victims to Czernowitz and they were interred with all the honours of heroes.The following year, after the Russians retreated, the first army to return was the whole battalion 16, with Major Carp at the head. Wednesday morning 4th July 1941, the Russians retreated and in the evening the Rumanians entered. Thursday morning, the news spread among the peasants that for 24 hrs, they could do whatever they wanted with the Jews.The rest of the guesome details you can read on JewishGen. Of 70 Jewish families, only 3-4 escaped,- 572 people were murdered.
It was this 24hr. 'decree',- the personal revenge of the one Major, that spread like wildfire, it appears, across the whole Bucovina, because all the Jews were labelled Communists.
In Milia, all the Jews, 176 of them, were murdered and the gruesome details are described,- but I cannot describe them. He names some people, -Dr. Iacob Geller,- and also states that "it must be understood that all had lived with good understanding between them and the others without envy or bad blood. But this did not stop the local populationfrom participating in the killing and plunder afterwards."
The only ones who escaped were Dr. Lustig with his father-in law, Moses Haim Nagel. The locals checked all the dead to make sure that no Jews escaped, as well as all their homes.
In Rastoace, there were more Jews because many had fled there from the surroundng areas. All were muredered, some 320 in number. Only family Stier, 8 members, escaped and were later transported to Transnistria. The massacre was executed by the locals, even neighbours who had lived well with each other! The author writes that he wants to repeat it to "absurd extremes", because one cannot explain the besteality of those people. Even those refugees who were fleeing from elsewhere were killed. The refugees came from Sipote, Vijnita, Seletin, Putila. The locals even killed 50 Russian retreating soldirers,- this happened only in Rastoacea. From them they managed to get the necessary arms to kill the Jews.
Vijnitza must have details in JewishGen-Yizkor book as well. 90% of the population was Jewish apparently. Once the rumour reached the peasants that they have "the 24 hours" they started to go door-to-door and stripped the people naked, cleaned them up of jewellery and money then killed them or if they didn't find enything, they killed them because they didn't find anything!
But apparently, "only" 23 Jews were actually butchered, because on the second day, a new Major entered the town(somebody Petruc from Vatra Dornei) and he stopped it immediately,- otherwise all would have been murdered. He was very decent and helped the jews by giving them the rations left behind from the Russians and then divided also some money among them. Unfortunately 14days later this Major was killed on the front. The murdered Jews were later interred in the 100ds-of-years Old Cemetery, in a communal grave.
I don't know the fate of the rest later, but they must have ended up in Transnistria.
---------------
I think that this about covers most of what I can make out! Hope it helps you.
Have you found the book on the internet, that you gave me the pages from? Please send me the URL. It will make it easier to send it to those who might still understand Romanian.
Regards,
---------------------------------------------------
Your newest email is of special interest to me. I've been searching unsuccessfully for years for information about my grandmother, Anna Schmerz and my aunt, Yetta or Yetti Schmerz -- who I believe were victims of the bloody events that took place in Cernauti, Romania in 1941.
It's been extremely frustrating til now and your information offers the potential of learning something.
I don't have a fax available, but if you could check the list and find the names of my relatives, I'll find a friend with a fax to receive the information.
Many thanks for your generosity and concern in keeping the Cz list informed.
Selma Schmerz
Dear Selma,
I checked the Cernauti pages in the book, but did not come across the names you mentioned.
Of course, there were many Jews there in the big city, so I suggest that your best bet is to look up JewishGen/Yizkor book
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Bukowinabook/html
Best regards,
---------------------------------------------
> Dear >
> My name is Fred. Weisinger. I was quite interested in
> your article about Czernowitz. You see I was born
> there and lived through the ocupation period. I was
> back to Czernowitz a few years ago. I also visited the
> vilage of Pohorloutz were my Granparents Weisinger
> were landhoders. When I and my brother Leo visited
> making inquiries most people were newcomers from the
> Ukraine we found however one person who remembered my
> familie by first names as apparently he knew them
> well. I also had family in Zastawna amongst them was a
> Stenzler. I would be interested if you kindly were to make it
> posible to send me any information, of course, I would be
> gladly defry you of any cost of copy.
>
> yours sincerily Fred.Weisinger
>
Dear Fred,
I checked the Cernauti pages in the book, but did not come across the names you mentioned. Of course, there were many Jews there in the big city, so I suggest that your best bet is to look up JewishGen/Yizkor book http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Bukowinabook/html
How good is your Rumanian? I don't mind sending you whatever pages I have about Cernauti, as long as you can read them.
Best regards,
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ______________________
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